A family walks into a talent agency, and says, “Have we got the act for you…”
If you’re familiar with this opening to a joke, you may have had a visceral reaction to it — either you think it’s hysterically funny, shamefully disgusting, or both.
It’s the opening to the joke, The Aristocrats, and if you have a weak stomach, I don’t suggest you look it up.
See, the point of this joke isn’t actually the punchline, which is right in the title. The point is to see how long you can improv a shocking, disgusting, offensive story.
You can think about it as a secret handshake among comedians, that became not so secret after a 2005 documentary came out about it.
It got me thinking about the importance of telling a story.
This week, I got to speak to my friend Nick Benson’s college classes about Digital Storytelling.
Don’t worry, I didn’t tell The Aristocrats.
Instead, I spoke to them about why storytelling is so important in any content you create, especially podcasting. I say especially because up until this point, the vast majority of podcasts haven’t integrated storytelling in some way.
They’ve been back-and-forth interviews, emulating more of a late night host than a movie or TV show1.
And while there are popular podcasts shows that don’t weave storytelling into the fabric of the content, most of them do. Look at Lore, American Storytellers, and Serial. They all tell a compelling story.
If you’re trying to differentiate in today’s world — the world where everything is vying for your attention — you can’t just have a conversation (unless you happen to be a Super Bowl winning Tight End dating the world’s most popular pop star and American royalty). You need to tell a good story.
So where do you start?
Just a quick level-set here: I’m talking about non-fiction, information-focused podcasts here. The interviews or solo shows where you’re teaching or doing knowledge transfer. I suspect I don’t need to convince podcasts that already tell a story to…well…tell a story.
How to Tell a Good Story
My friend Mike Pacchione is a public speaking coach, and knows the power of telling a good story. He knows you need to hook your listeners, then take them on a journey in your talk.
This doesn’t have to be an epic story. It just needs a beginning (a hook), a middle (some conflict), and some conclusion— even if it’s a cliffhanger.
Many stories actually follow a very similar format.
The Hero’s Journey
The basis of many, many stories is Joseph Campbell’s Hero’s Journey. It’s the idea that we have a hero (the main character) go through some life-altering adventure, with the help of a guide. The hero experiences a trial that eventually leads to growth.
We see this format all the time: Star Wars, Harry Potter, and Lord of the Rings are commonly cited.
But they don’t have to be epics. 30 Rock is a bit more fluid, but you could argue that both Liz Lemon and Jack Donaghy go through their own Hero’s Journey throughout the show — guiding each other to be better versions of themselves.
Barney Stinson in How I Met Your Mother, while not the main character, goes through considerable character growth from the first to last season.
This doesn’t just need to be in fiction either. In-fact, one of Nick’s students asked me how to turn non-fiction events into stories.
It’s something I spoke to Cody Sheehy about on my podcast.
But there’s another person who’s very good at telling stories based on her own life, and we know her All Too Well.
Let’s Talk About All Too Well
If you haven’t listened to the 10 Minute version of Taylor Swift’s All Too Well, I highly recommend it.
Not only is it a bop, but it tells an incredible story about a several months relationship in, well, 10 minutes.
She uses her words to paint incredible pictures for us to imagine.
Photo album on the counter, Your cheeks were turning red. You used to be a little kid with glasses in a twin-sized bed. And your mother’s telling stories ’bout you on the tee-ball team…
…can’t you see this scene in your head? I can picture it perfectly.
But she also uses similes to convey to use how she and the one she’s talking to treated their clandestine rekindling:
And there we are again when nobody had to know. You kept me like a secret, but I kept you like an oath
We immediately know the difference between how she viewed them covertly getting back together, vs. how our subject did.
Her use of metaphors also powerful convey the emotion she, and we, should be feeling…
And you call me up again just to break me like a promise. So casually cruel in the name of being honest
I’m a crumpled up piece of paper lying here, cause I remember it all too well.
…crushed, wasted, and thrown into a trash bin.
The truth is, most of this was probably mundane. But she highlights the important bits, and how she felt as a 20-21 year old dating someone seemingly other than her.
The hook in all of this is the mystery. The song came out in 2012. The 10 minute version in 2023.
And I read what was basically an investigative article dated this month diving into who the song is about, and why.
It’s all speculation, and none of it confirmed by any parties who’ve been named. But we love to talk about it.
Taylor Swift knows how to hook us with a good story.
Finding the Story and the 3-Act Structure
So where can you find the story? For Taylor, it’s usually based on her own experience.
I like to draw from my own experience, as well as lessons from pop culture (if you couldn’t tell by now).
You can find inspiration anywhere — you just need to make sure it drives home your point.
Mike recommends getting a long sheet a paper and drawing a timeline of your life on it, where you mark important events on your life.
Then you can find stories based on what was going on at the time.
For Nick’s class, I opened with a story about the first time I sought therapy, and the events that lead me to the conclusion I needed help.
With my interviews, I try to define the interview using the 3-act structure:
- The setup, where we introduce our guide — the guest — and have some sort of inciting incident that forces the need to change.
- The confrontation, where we create some sort of conflict or tension. This is usually a challenge to the guide’s main point, which we introduced in Act 1.
- The resolution, where we confront the conflict, accept the guide’s point of view, and learn how to implement what the guide as taught us.
Now I know what you’re thinking here — shouldn’t the guest be the hero? It’s their journey, after all.
No! When you’re creating a podcast, someone else should be the hero.
Make Your Listener the Hero
If you want sticky, helpful content, your listener needs to be the hero. Everyone roots for the hero — and believes in them as the approach the end of the story.
Making your listener the hero empowers them, gets them to believe in themselves, and opens them up to the possibility of a transformation.
If you have guests, your guest should be the guide. If you don’t, you’re the guide.
Positioning yourself as the guide does two things:
- It makes you the authority on the topic
- It helps your listener know, like, and trust you faster
After all, who doesn’t like Obi-Wan, Dumbledore, and Gandalf?
You do that focusing the content around the listener and what they need to do to transform.
In Star Wars, Obi-Wan appears to Luke and tells him to trust in the Force. Obi-Wan doesn’t manipulate the Force for him.
Dumbledore puts an entire system in place to help Harry do what only Harry can do.
Gandalf doesn’t deliver the ring to Mordor. He helps Frodo do it.
Your job, as the podcaster and the guide, is to help your listener.
You can’t do that unless you make them the hero.
How Will You Tell Stories in Your Podcast?
The next time you prep a podcast episode, think about the story you’re telling. What are you, or your guest, guiding the listener towards?
What conflict will they overcome?
How will the story resolve?
Cody Sheehy, in my interview with him, said telling a good story is opening doors in a house, then running through the house and slamming most of them shut.
How can you help your listeners close the door on the problem they’re having?
- Except good interviewers can extract stories from their guests. ↩
